Don’t Assume, Do it Right!

Health equity starts with inclusive research.

In this episode of Voices of Inclusive Research, Dr. Ren speaks with Dr. Camille Campbell, Biogen’s Lead for Health Equity and Clinical Innovation, about the critical work of making clinical research inclusive and representative. Dr. Campbell shares her experiences bridging the gap between pharmaceutical research and historically marginalized communities, emphasizing the importance of meeting people where they are and building trust.

She also dives into practical strategies for increasing diversity in clinical trials, including leveraging technology and engaging community sites.

Tune in for a compelling conversation on inclusion, trust, and the long-term work required to advance health equity in clinical research.

Must-Hear Insights and Key Moments

• Assumptions vs. Reality: Simply having a trial site in a city does not guarantee participation from the target population; community satellite sites and protocol flexibility are key.
• Technology with Intention: Digital tools can expand reach, but strategies must consider generational and cultural differences in technology use.
• Representation Builds Trust: Seeing people with shared backgrounds in research and pharma strengthens community engagement and participation.
• Patient Empowerment: Communities should feel confident asking questions, seeking expert guidance, and making informed healthcare decisions.
• Persistence is Key: Change in health equity and clinical research is incremental, requiring ongoing effort and resilience.

About Dr. Campbell

Camille Campbell, PharmD, RPh is a healthcare leader with 18+ years’ experience in biopharma, health-tech, community engagement, and clinical care. She is Lead for Health Equity & Clinical Innovation at Biogen, previously serving as Senior Director of Health Equity at Acclinate and holding Medical Affairs roles at AstraZeneca and Abbvie.

Dr. Campbell champions workforce representation and inclusive research, creating programs for HBCU students and sharing expertise through presentations, publications, and podcasts. She earned her PharmD from Florida A&M University, completed a Post-Doctoral Medical Strategy Fellowship with Bristol-Myers Squibb/Rutgers, and holds a graduate certificate in Health Disparities Research from the University of Illinois Chicago. She is Principal Owner of Bella Peek Consulting, LLC.

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We Want to Hear Your Voice!

Your insights on how inclusive research impacts your life and community are invaluable. Share your experiences and thoughts on how we can bridge the gap between research and real-world needs. Your stories drive our mission and inspire the future of inclusive research!

Transcript

Note: We use AI transcription so there may be some inaccuracies

Dr. Ren: welcome to another episode of Voices of Inclusive Research Podcast, VIR.

I'm your host, Dr. Ren founder of Diverse Research Now and today you'll hear the voice of Dr. Camille Campbell. Dr. Campbell is a highly accomplished healthcare leader with over 18 years of experience at the intersection of biopharma, health tech, startup, community engagement, and clinical care. She currently serves as the lead for health equity and clinical innovation at a pharma company called Biogen.

She is passionate about empowering black and brown communities and improving representation in clinical research. So I'm super excited to talk to Dr. Campbell today. So let's go ahead and get started. How are you doing today, Dr. Campbell? I 

Dr. Camille Campbell: am fine. It is good to see you, Dr. Bernarda. I'm, yeah, I'm doing great.

Excited for the Thanksgiving holiday. I dunno when this is gonna be posted, but we are recording 

Dr. Ren: it right before 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Thanksgiving, so Yes. 

Dr. Ren: Recording right before Thanksgiving. Well, you guys will see it later, but that's okay. We getting ready? Our belly's ready for that one. Uhhuh. tell us more about yourself, Dr.

Campbell. I'm super excited to talk to you. I know we've known each other for a few years, met when you were working with, acclimate. and super excited because I do think that we. have some of the same mission out here. So, I'm excited to, hear your voice today.

So tell us more about yourself. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: so I'm a pharmacist by profession. graduated with my pharm D from the Florida Agricultural and Mechanical University, the best HBCU out there, go Rattlers. and, knew pretty early in my career that I wanted to go into pharmaceutical industry, uhhuh.

Um, and so right after pharmacy school that completed a fellowship within pharmaceutical industry and stayed in what I like to call traditional quote unquote pharmaceutical industry. for about 15 years. And the roles that I had were in this functional area called medical affairs. So I was a medical science liaison.

I was a medical director. as a medical science liaison, I was always responsible for conveying medical information and clinical information to like physicians and pharmacists and people who were looking to use the drugs and the patients that they were treating, and making sure they knew all the, most up-to-date data they understood, how safe the drugs were, how to manage the safety, how to dose it, all the things.

and then I did the same thing as, like a medical director in a headquarters based position where I was, helping to develop the strategy for when like drugs were going to come into the market. helping physicians understand what does our data mean from like the clinical trials and how would you use that data to treat your patients and like strategizing around that.

So I did that for like 15 years and I was always in working in these therapeutic areas where, you know. Look at it, often disproportionately impacted like black and brown communities of people who look like me or my dad or my mom. Mm-hmm. My brother, my sister-in-law. so I worked in HIV, I worked in Hepatitis 

worked in, oncology for several years.

I worked in, prostate cancer, breast cancer, and pancreatic cancer. and it was really when I was working in prostate cancer at, a big pharmaceutical company, shout out to AstraZeneca, where I realized how the, pull through of clinical data and like making sure that there was a representative population in the clinical trials like.

That how important that pull through was for clinicians, because they wanted to know that the drugs that they were going to be using in their patients had been studied in patients who look like their patients who maybe had the same comorbidities, which, just means that they might have other diseases that go along like with whatever, disease that drug is being studied for.

And so I was working in the prostate cancer space and, realized that it wasn't just like an issue with my company, but other companies as well in the prostate cancer space, that like we were having these phenomenal phase three study readouts and like the data were positive and the drug was, you know, safe for what it was worth.

Right? The benefits were out, weren't weighing the risks, but when you looked at the demographics of who was in those clinical trials. It wasn't representative of who was more likely to get like advanced prostate cancer in the us in the us you know, black men twice as likely to be diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer, twice as likely to die from it.

if those stats still hold true, it might even be a little bit higher. Now I'm not, have to look at my stats, but anyway, that was the situation. But when you looked at the demographics of the clinical trials, you did not see like black men represented it, black men represented. And I was like, well, why is that?

I was like, how can we have, like, you know, all these clinical trials, right? Several, big phase three studies we're enrolling hundreds of people, granted their global trials, right? So it wasn't just the US right? You had patients from Japan and Europe and other countries and things like that, but you still had like a significant amount of clinical trial sites, in the us yet not.

Seeing the patients who would be most likely to use the drug in the real world, being enrolled at the sites that were being included in these clinical trials Now, I was like, that's a problem. And, 

Dr. Ren: uh, I have so many conferences like that, okay. Mm-hmm. Where not those results have been read out. And I see like, oh, there's no black people in there.

Yes. Or, or brown people. Like, okay. Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: And you know, I started to like, realize it and, point it out, but there wasn't really, I don't know, I mean, folks made recognition of it, but there wasn't like a. A need or a thought that like this could maybe impact our business if we don't do things differently?

Ah, un until Uhhuh, we had a situation. 

actually there were several different things that happened. one of the things that happened, and I, remember this like it was yesterday. you know, again, as a medical director, you're responsible for sh you know, helping to communicate the data. And, our patient advocacy team, because like pharmaceutical companies, they all have like a patient advocacy, have lots of different teams and functional areas or whatever in the company.

the patient advocacy, lead had come to me and said, Hey, I've got all these, you know. Patient advocacy groups that, wanna hear about the phase three data readout that we just had. you know, would you be okay getting on this call with these leads of these like large patient advocacy groups?

Okay. who are representing, you know, men with prostate cancer across the country. And talking about the data that we just had at this big conference, the efficacy, the safety, walk through it, and all the things I'm like, sure. So get on the call. there was one, patient advocacy group represented on the call and the, like, president or the CEO, of that group was an older black gentleman.

he was a prostate cancer survivor. And he was a physician. I think he may have been an oncologist, but I'm not sure. He was definitely like an md. Uh, 

I remember, like I was going through the data and I'm, you know, all these people on the call and he stopped me. It was like, Uhhuh, there any black people in this clinical trial?

And I was like. And he was like, you know, I'm just looking at your demographics and you know, we had not presented the demographic. I don't even think we had presented the race and ethnicity data, like as clearly as we probably could have. Yeah. So the data were not in the slides that I was presenting.

Yeah. Because I think I was presenting like straight from the Congress presentation. and so I was like, actually I would need to go back and look and see, you know, what was the demographic breakdown. And I feel like maybe during that call I had an opportunity, like there was a little break and I was able to like go and find the information.

And when I went back and shared like that, you know, there weren't, it was like a very, very small amount of black people in that clinical study, black men. And he was just like. Yeah, I don't know how comfortable I would be prescribing this medication to the group of patients that I treat.

You know, he's like, I'm a, you know. Yeah. He had to have been an oncologist. 'cause he was like, you know, I'm a black oncologist. And he was like, yeah, most of the men that come to me are black patients with advanced prostate cancer. And he was like, they're likely gonna be the ones, you know, that I would prescribe this drug too because of, you know, What indication it's gonna be approved for. But he was like, but I don't see them represented here. Yeah. And he was like, if there are other options where I have data that do show that they're represented and that the drug, you know, that other option is safe and efficacious, he was like, I might be more inclined to lean towards that because I know that what to expect from that drug in my patient population.

And I was just like, you know, you have a great point, sir. Like, I couldn't like combat it the same. I was like, you're absolutely right doc. Like, I, yeah. You know? and so it was at that point where I was like, man, we gotta do better. We gotta, and so, we had some other studies coming up and, you know, I'll give all the kudos to, az, to AstraZeneca because, um.

There was a concerted effort at that time to like focus more on clinical trial diversity and so, mm-hmm. There were like a couple of different clinical trial diversity work streams and I ended up co-leading one of those work streams within our oncology division. And, myself and a couple of other people actually came up with a specific project where we went back to the investigators of that first phase three study that didn't have like a, great recruitment of black patients, or just.

Honestly marginalized patients, period. Right? Yeah, it was, yeah. And we were like, we talked to several of the investigators and said, well, what could we have done differently? What could you have done differently? Like, how do we better? Because we had other studies coming. and then, you know, we got a lot of great insights from them about efforts that they had made, whether it worked or not.

And then they also gave us advice on some of the additional support that they would've appreciated and like, that we could think about over the future. And then, like the group the subgroup that I was leading, like, we went back and we presented that information to like our clinical development team and the medical team, so that we could do things differently for the next study.

So but it was like, you know, that experience right there made me think like, wow. This really could have business impact, right? Because technically, you're not even supposed to market your drugs overtly to patient subgroups that haven't been represented in your clinical trials. It's like the FDA, like they're, they're pretty big about like, you know, when you look at a commercial.

Or like a TV commercial where a drug is being marketed, whoever is represented. It represented. I keep saying, represented. It represented in that commercial. Like it should be a reflection of who you actually studied the drug in. And if you're not matching the two, then it can even impact like how you market your drug, right?

Like, oh, you can't put, interesting. 

Dr. Ren: Okay. Yeah. I don't know if I knew that. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yes, there's a whole division within the FDA called the Office of Prescription Drug Promotion. Mm-hmm. OPDP. Uh, and like that's literally one of their main jobs is to regulate how industry markets, drugs. And one of the things that they look at is, you know, when you have a visual aid that maybe you're showing a physician, or if you have a commercial that's gonna be on TV that patients and whoever are going to see, you can't have visuals and representation.

on those, aids or those commercials and things like that, that don't reflect who's actually studied in the clinical trial, regardless of who's gonna be using the drug in the real world. 

Dr. Ren: So, oh, so that's why all the commercials are just, they're not people of color in the commercials, so, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: exactly.

I'm not gonna say exactly, but yes. So, like, for instance, again, I don't wanna call out specific companies, but like there's like a commercial for like a vitiligo, a drug that treats vitiligo, and in the commercial, so. in my work over the years, uh You know, just learned about like prevalence and incidents data for different, diseases.

Like, one of the things that actually surprised me about vitiligo was that vitiligo is not necessarily like more prevalent in like black patients, right? Like the incidents In, you know, black versus white or whatever black brown skin color is, it's the same. Okay. But on a darker skinned person, right, you're going to see the impact more than you would on like a lighter skinned person, or let's say like, oh, oh, what you would call a white patient.

Mm-hmm. and so I remember seeing like a commercial for, a drug to treat vitiligo. And I noticed that in the commercial they weren't using, Like, the patients were not like, as dark as I am. Right. Uhhuh, they weren't as chocolate as I am. And I thought, huh, that's interesting.

So they were using like, they were brown patients represented in the commercial. And it made me like, go back and look at the clinical trial to see like, well, what were the demographics? And like, again, I'm no dermatology guru, but there's like scoring for like, the darkness of your skin that is used to deter like in the field of dermatology.

Yeah. And The average score or whatever of the patients that were included in those vitiligo studies for that drug, it was not the darkest hu Right. It was like medium hue. And I was like, and that's probably why you don't see a whole lot of like chocolate like me in the commercials because that's not who was represented in the clinical trials.

And that particular company wasn't able to showcase like, or not showcase, but wasn't able to show, even though the drug may work just as well in darker skin, lighter skin, medium tone, whatever. Fair. Like they weren't able to show that in their commercials because that's not who was included in the clinical trials.

So yeah. Yes, there's, but they don't dunno really. 

Dr. Ren: They don't know really know because they wasn't in the study. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: So, but yes, there is a whole division in the FDA that like, that's what they do. And they will write letters to pharmaceutical companies, when they. do market products in a way that maybe isn't, is, you know, they'll say This is misleading, or you know, this visual doesn't match that look at your clinical, like, they'll call pharmaceutical companies out and ask them to correct that.

Okay. Because they don't want you misleading public or the patients or physicians. So, 

Dr. Ren: yeah. so that's a checkbox. that's definitely for that department and for the pharma world, like a checkbox, Hey, make sure mm-hmm. The visuals are actually represented team what was in our study.

So how, what about, engaging beyond those check boxes. So, 'cause I know you have, led. community engagement efforts, you know, in, several different organizations. And so what have, the communities taught you? Yeah, like true engagement, like how real true engagement would look like.

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. So I guess that kind of leads me, I took a little detour talking about my life, right? So I'll get back on track. So that leads me to the role I had after I, left az. so when I was at AstraZeneca, again, I was the medical director, but I was doing like clinical trial diversity, health equity work on top of my medical director job.

Okay. and I was also doing some workforce inclusion work too. 'cause I was just like, we need more diverse spot on this team. Right? Like, I was the only black woman medical director I think in oncology medical affairs. I had a counter. Huh? You, I had a counterpart, I had a black male counterpart, I won't say his name, but shout out to him.

and it was a diverse organization, but you could always use more representation. And so I, I was doing some workforce, Inclusion and representative initiatives at AZ as well to kind of create a more diverse pipeline of talent and so we could be more intentional about people we were bringing into our organization.

so anyway, I was doing that and I just decided like, I think I wanna do this health equity thing more fully. Like, you know, it was a lot doing that and trying to like launch these drugs, you know, with my traditional medical director and strategy position. So I ended up leaving, traditional pharma.

I left AstraZeneca. And went to a company called Aate, which was like, well, is it still exists? like a health tech startup that worked adjacent to pharma. and the, and what I really liked about Aate is that they led with community first and it was like, we'll, partner, I love 

Dr. Ren: that about them as well.

Dr. Camille Campbell: So the thinking was like, we'll partner with pharmaceutical companies on their clinical trial diversity initiatives. Yeah. And at the time the FDA had come down with like, a couple of guidances related to clinical trial diversity, that, you know, it was new because the FDA was now trying to hold companies accountable for doing this work and doing it really intentionally and saying like, you know, it's not a nice to have, we are going to ask you to submit like these, clinical trial diversity plans before you even start your studies so that we know that you're thinking about this from the beginning.

Um, do you 

Dr. Ren: know what triggered that? Because I always think like, why did it just all of a sudden happen like that? I mean, we've both been in this field for so long. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, you know, like F-D-H-N-I-H like wanted to make sure. That because I don't think it was a requirement before to report demographics.

Dr. Camille Campbell: Listen, it ain't a requirement now, but that's a whole story.

 As the politics and things have changed, the guidance hasn't been enforced the way I know many of us would've liked to have seen it be enforced, but I wouldn't even say that it was all of a sudden, I mean, you could go back to, I don't know how early, but it's a good 20 years or so, and the FDA and the NIH put out like, guidances or language recommendations on broadening the scope of clinical trials and improving representation.

What made the clinical trial diversity plan guidance so different, and that came out in like 2022, was that they were actually, now you had this government entity now actually trying to hold people accountable and saying not only are we gonna give you recommendations on how to do it, but we gonna ask you to submit the plan.

Right. Okay. 

Dr. Ren: Putting accountability in place. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. So that was the difference. So I wouldn't say it was new. And, you know, I like to say that honestly, most folks, whether it's the pharmaceutical companies, physicians, patients, regulatory authorities, really understand the need and why it's important to have representation in the clinical trials, right?

Because you wanna make sure the drugs work just as well in the real world population, and they're just as safe as they are when they were studied. and it's, you know, people have always thought that, but it was the now we're gonna like, make you intentionally think about it and submit a plan that made it different.

Yeah. so the timing of me going to acclimate really worked out well because you had these pharmaceutical companies, some who had, again already started the thinking of like, how do we. Make our trials more diverse. Mm-hmm. How do we be more inclusive in, you know, really, Build trust with communities that haven't trusted us before and bring research opportunities to them, educate around the importance of considering participation, but not forcing like that.

There were some companies that had been doing this work, but there were other companies where this was like new and you know, the thinking was, well, how do we do this? Right? We're a pharmaceutical company. our job is to Develop drugs, right? We wanna like, you know, whatever cure disease, manage disease in patients.

Dr. Ren: but it can't happen without those participants. It can't 

Dr. Camille Campbell: happen without the participants. And you've gotta go into these new communities that, you haven't, you maybe haven't had experience going into before. They might not know you, they might not trust you. And so, you know, you found, some companies kind of struggling with like, well, how do we do this?

Like, this is not our expertise. so the cool thing about acclimate it was like, all right, well this is our expertise, right? Yes, yes. We can help you. Yes. Let us help you. You know, we can partner with you. Yeah, we can, Help identify the gaps and then also like, actually execute, right? Like, and help kind of be the arms and the legs and go into the communities where you haven't engaged before and help you to build trust.

and then, you know, when it's time, because it takes time to build trust and you really should act like you care about people and build trust before you ask 'em to do something. Right. When it's, when it's time help you offer whatever, you know, research opportunities you're looking to offer. and so I was at Acclimate as the chief medical lead and the senior director for health equity for several years.

Dr. Ren: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: And it was a really great experience, because. Like when I say we led community first, like it was community first, we tried to use the insights and the data that we got from being in community to inform our work. And so what you learn is that every community is different, right?

Mm-hmm. Like even if people, the same or similar, race and ethnicity, right? I identify as a black woman. My experience as a black woman living in, you know, the Washington DC area, with the background that I have is, could be very different from a black woman in the healthcare system, living in rural, you know, Mississippi, right?

And so you have to really, go in and be humble with a lot of humility and listen to what people really care about, what it is that they need, and then. Once you're able to build trust and like fill the gaps around basic needs, when it comes to healthcare knowledge and things like that, and you keep going back over and over again and you build relationships with the people who live in the community and the trusted messengers who can kind of like share with others whatever you're trying to talk about from a healthcare clinical trial perspective, like over time, it makes it so much easier to then offer an opportunity like clinical trial and somebody actually consider it.

and so I would say like that's one of the main things that, um. It's, I think it's something I always like knew, right? Like you always subconsciously know that as a person, right. But like, to do it every day, experience it and like all the different communities where we would like go and do activations.

Like, it just, you know, it made it so real. It was like, no, we know when we go to Philly. Right? Like, this is how we have to engage when we we go to Philly. Exactly. Versus when we go to, you know, Huntsville, Alabama. yes. And I enjoyed my time at Acclimate and it was awesome be able to then take those learnings, and share those back with like, these companies that, you know, sometimes had that blind spot and didn't realize, like they weren't engaging in the most genuine way or in the most trustworthy way.

And then realizing like over time after doing that. You could actually, you know, and also offer something. That's the other thing. Don't just go in and say, oh, I want you to be in my clinical trial. I say anything 

Dr. Ren: to do. I say that all the time. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We have to 

Dr. Ren: give back. We have to give back and offer something.

that's all a part of building trust. You know, there has to be like, some shared benefit here. Yep. So. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Dr. Ren: I love that. It sounds like you're saying that your experience in the community and true engagement is really about knowing the community. Mm-hmm. You know, knowing what community you're going into.

and not just, oh, this is the black community. This is the Hispanic community. This is the Asian community. No. Like, it goes a little deeper than that. 'cause like you said, that black woman in Washington DC with your background and that black woman in rural Mississippi. Mm-hmm.

Different. Mm-hmm. So your needs are gonna be different. Mm-hmm. so that's what equity is all about, like clinical, I mean health equity is all about mm-hmm. Giving you what you need to Exactly. your, for the best health. so what do you think is one of like the biggest barriers to like really meaningful representation?

Like in clinical research? is it still trust in the black community? Because I know when I first started the, DRN, like everybody was talking about trust, trust, trust. Like we have this mistrust, you know? but I really dunno if that's what the biggest barrier is anymore. And I, I 

Dr. Camille Campbell: don't.

Yeah, I mean, you asked about the biggest, I don't know what the biggest is. Trust is still a barrier, but again, it's not a barrier with everybody, right? So I think one of the biggest barriers is thinking that. Everybody's got the same barriers. That's the same barriers, and they don't, 

Dr. Ren: I like that.

Okay. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: We don't have the same barriers. That's good. and making it again, monolithic, right. Saying, well, all black people mistrust and all Hispanic people this, and all Native Americans, this actually, that's not true. True. I would say for the most part, for the most part. I trust the healthcare system.

Come on. Hey, you know, again, I'm a pharmacist. I'm, I'm a black woman. Yeah. So I would say that's probably one of the biggest barriers is just assuming that everybody has the biggest barrier. I like that, that the same barrier. Like, no, we don't. Right. But let's not say that trust isn't a barrier because it is, there are a lot of folks, of course, and again, it's, and you know, again, this is there are white folks who also distrust the system.

Right. It's not That's right. It just us. Right. So again, it's thinking that, you know, two things could be true at one 

Dr. Ren: time. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: You really have to understand communities. You got to understand people at the individual level to see what their barriers are and address the gaps. I'll also say one of the biggest issues I have is, you know, we like to put the onus on the patient to do a lot of work.

And that's not fair. Like, that's not right. Most patients don't have a healthcare background, And so, or even if they do have a healthcare background, like it's, two things need to happen. We want patients to feel, to be knowledgeable enough and feel empowered enough to ask questions around clinical trials, I don't know what I don't know, but if you educate me, then I now know when I go to my doctor, like I don't know a lot about clinical trials, but I heard somebody talking about it and you know, Dr. Camille or Dr. Wr told me I need to ask my doctor about a clinical trial. Right? And I feel empowered enough and comfortable enough to ask my doctor about it because I heard, you know, someone that I trust that's right.

Talking about it and they encouraged me to do so. But like. It shouldn't always be that the patient has to be empowered to ask. A lot of times patients aren't being asked to participate, and that is a barrier because like 

Dr. Ren: that is most of the time, right? 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Why are you not asking and offering? and so we have to, be mindful of the biases that exist within the healthcare system, where, you know, whether they're conscious or not.

There's an assumption that people don't want to participate from certain communities, and so they don't get asked. or that they're not going to be able to quote, unquote, afford to participate. Because sometimes there are, there is, you know, there's no cost, but there's a cost. You might have to pay for a certain test or whatever in order to be eligible for clinical trial, Like and so there's this assumption made by healthcare providers where they're not even asking people to participate who might want to and who might have the means to if you just ask them the question. so that's a barrier. It's kind of when we don't put the onus, when we put all of the responsibility on the patient and don't recognize the biases that exist at the healthcare provider level, but they're also the biases that exist at the structural level, which there are, those are a lot harder to change, Like. 

Dr. Ren: Yeah. There's just 

Dr. Camille Campbell: certain things you're not going to be able to change at the structural level. 

Dr. Ren: Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Like that. 

Dr. Ren: Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: But it's the recognition of them and knowing that they're there and having that in the back of your mind as a healthcare provider and saying, well, that might impact whether or not my patient is able to participate, but that shouldn't keep me from asking them.

Yes. And then you ask, right? So I think those are barriers too. It's just not being mindful of the healthcare provider bias that might exist, and also the structural barriers that exist that we might not be able to change right away, but if you're gonna be operating within the system, be cognizant of them so that you can at least kind of like that can offset whatever personal bias you might have as a healthcare provider.

Dr. Ren: I love that because I do think that it might be, yeah, you answered my question. I feel like that could be the biggest barrier when it comes to the pharma in the sponsor world, not paying enough attention to the role of. Healthcare providers like you said, we are putting so much on recruiting the patient and what the patient needs to do or what the participant needs to do.

Like, no, we need to get out here and share with the healthcare providers. Like, Hey, these research studies are available. This is mm-hmm. What we can do. Like we need to partner with them in some way. Like there has to be, I think we need to work on it on both ends, you know? Mm-hmm. We educate the participants, we give them what they need to make a decision to get involved, but then we also educate the doctors mm-hmm.

And healthcare providers so they are comfortable with presenting this to the patients. Mm-hmm. So I think both ends, both of them have to Be addressed, like yes, at the same time simultaneously 

Dr. Camille Campbell: the, at the same time. And, one of the things that we are seeing, pharma companies do, which is great, is think about like, how do we even diversify our clinical trial sites, or if we can't diversify the sites per se, let, those who might not actually be running the clinical trials, but have patients who may be eligible for the clinical trials, know about the studies that are nearby.

And that way they can, recommend that those patients, you know, you'd be, connected to that clinical trial site, you know, for consideration, in the study. Because a lot of times what we see. and this was especially true in oncology, but again, you see companies making a concerted effort to do things differently, which I love is, you know, you go to the same big old academic medical centers That have, like, you know, they have the infrastructure. Right, right. You know that they can run the studies. Right. They have the enough staff, they have the equipment, they have, you know, maybe topnotch, big name, key opinion leader who wrote the clinical guidelines. Yep. And is the researcher, the top researcher in the disease state?

And you want him to be the PI on your clinical trial? Like that's where you're going all the time. Yep. To run your studies, but. That doesn't necessarily mean that all the patients who would benefit from that clinical trial are going to those academic medical centers. Most of the time people are going to their community doctors to get treated.

they're not going to a big academic medical center. At least not consistently, 

Dr. Ren: especially in black and brown communities, especially in black and brown communities. It's just what it's 

Dr. Camille Campbell: mm-hmm. Or e even if the academic medical center is there. Right. They not going because they might mistrust it and I, I don't, 

Dr. Ren: and they might have had a bad experience, I'm telling you, like you from a black family, I'm from a black family.

If a family member have a bad experience at a, a hospital, they, nobody's going back there. no one is going back there in the family. Uhhuh like the entire family. That's off limits for them. We ain't going back there. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Or, you know, but I get, I wouldn't even say relegate that to black people. I mean, that's with a, a lot of folks in communities.

Mm-hmm. And so, again, you might make this assumption that, okay, there's this big academic medical center in a. Majority black city. Like I live in the Washington DC area, so we have a lot of like well-known academic medical centers here in Baltimore and things like that. Mm-hmm. And it's this, again, a diverse population.

you know, the black, brown, white, all the lovely races and ethnicities here. Yeah. I love living in this area. but that doesn't mean that. That the marginalized populations that you're trying to reach with their clinical trials are going to those academic medical centers that might be right there in their city.

They might be going to a community practice. They might be going to maybe a, you know, a hospital that accepts their insurance more readily. Like it's, yeah. So you can't make this assumption. 'cause that's another thing that'll happen is that the companies will say, well, I had a, I had a clinical trial site in Baltimore.

I don't understand why, why we didn't have more black people. And it's like, well it takes more than just having the site there. Right. May, did you see whether that big academic medical center had satellite community sites? 'cause a lot of times they do. Well, maybe that's where you need to be trying to recruit from the satellite community sites Yeah.

That are connected to the medical center, but aren't the actual medical center. Yeah. And like. Making sure that whatever eligibility criteria you have or whatever, requirements or like maybe equipment needs. 'cause I actually came across this when I was, when I was at acclimate, we were working with one of the companies and they had a, a large academic medical center that was running a study.

And the PI really wanted to open the study at a couple of the satellite community, clinics as well that were connected to the academic medical center and. weren't able to because there was a requirement and the protocol for like some piece of equipment that only was only at the, the big medical center.

And he was like, well, we don't really need that in order to run this trial. Like it's very unlikely that, you know, such and such would something would happen where that piece of equipment would be needed. And if we could just adjust the protocol and take that out, take that out so that I can now open this clinical trial at the community sites that are connected to the academic medical center.

So there'll be some oversight then we could probably like diversify the patient population, of this clinical trial. And it was just like. It's those types of conversations that have to happen for us to like kind of change our way of thinking and do things differently and say, oh, okay, well maybe we really don't need that piece of equipment.

that necessary thing in the protocol. Yeah. And this will allow us to, still be connected to the academic medical center, but open up the trial to the community. and so it really requires thinking differently about, protocols, about community engagement, about yeah.

Going into community, outside the box, building relationships. Yeah. Before you want something, it's like, why you coming to me? You coming to me? 'cause you want me to be in a trial. You ain't asked me how I'm doing today. Have I eaten? Right? Like, you know, and we remember that f people remember that. Again, not a race ethnicity thing.

That's just 

Dr. Ren: a human human, it's a human thing. Yeah. I love that. 'cause I, think that it's so important to, treat people like people in these studies. I love that. I mean, don't know, I feel like research, there's this bridge, you know what I mean?

And between research and the community. Mm-hmm. And so we have to, and I know that organizations like acclimate diverse research now. Like, we are, we're trying to bridge that, you know? Yeah. Like bridge the, the community needs to have access. They need to understand, they need to have, be able to reach out to mm-hmm.

Scientists and researchers and understand 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. 

Dr. Ren: This, you know, and maybe that's where technology comes in. 'cause I know, your work at Acclimate, since it was a health tech startup, is that where you found that technology comes in, is really bridging that gap? 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. I think technology comes in in a lot of different ways and I wanna, I.

Place a pin and bridging the gap. 'cause I've also, I wanna talk about some of the work that I'm doing at Biogen now. Uhhuh too. Uhhuh, 

Dr. Ren: Uhhuh, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: but to answer your question about technology, technology helps with reach. Now again, we can't make assumptions that has technology. I would say, I guess, I don't know what percentage of people have phones these days.

Dr. Ren: Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: But I would say like, yeah, a lot of people have phones, but how people use their phones very different. you know, true. This is true. And so again, now you gotta start thinking about generational representation, right? Because like, am I on Instagram or am I on TikTok? Am I on Facebook? Am I on whatever, right?

Am I on any social media? Maybe I only use my phone to text message my family. 'cause I'm older and I wanna stay in contact with my grandkids, but I'm not like on Facebook as Yeah, some of the elders say Facebook. 

Dr. Ren: Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: so I think what technology does, it helps with connection and it helps with reach.

but you even have to be mindful of how different people and communities, use that technology and, you know, lean into that. Right? So again, if you're trying to reach a younger generation with information on clinical trials and you know, participation and things like that, maybe you're not on Facebook, right?

Maybe you're doing something more TikTok ish, right? Yeah. But if you. focused on patient support groups or, you know, again, older generations, you know, you might see them more on Facebook. there might be more people on XI was just telling, um, some team members recently we were doing some social media listening like insights and I asked like the market research company that was presenting the data to like the team.

I was like, y'all include threads on here. Like y'all can start. Yeah. 'cause I'm like, there's this movement right, where people are transitioning that is true certain from X to threads, and I'm like. Y'all are missing out if you're not including threads as a way that you're trying to reach people, right?

Like it's relatively new. It's only been around a haven't on that yet, to me, technology helps with reaching people when you can't be there in person, but you have to be mindful of what are the best ways to reach different communities, right? Mm-hmm. Text messaging, maybe you have like an online platform.

So like, you know, acclimate had like this online platform, called now included, that existed online, but then it was also like now included in the streets, right? So they would do a lot of in-person engagement as well, right. But you could also like go online or go to the app and, you know, build community, get information about different disease states, get information about different clinical trials.

So I think technology helps a lot with reach. I also think that we have a, responsibility wherever sector we work in to make sure that we're reaching people with correct information. 'cause misinformation is a huge challenge 

Dr. Ren: right now. No, that's, that kind of clashes, I feel like there's a clash there, right?

Because we say, okay, technology is there to help us re reach, but then you have to be careful about it as well. So it's like, well that's. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: So you need to also have real life, experts and people Yeah. That folks can then go to and ask questions to. So exactly that. they need to know where to go.

Dr. Ren: You need to have like valid people Yeah. That, you know, or organizations that you could go to for sure. Yeah. so okay, let's talk about your work at Biogen. So like, oh, because you're building a legacy here, like, you're working at different companies, it's all for health equity and, I don't know if you're leaving this space anytime soon.

So are you gonna stay in this space, get this clinical research space and you're building this legacy? And so what is it looking like now? 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Well, well, thank you for thinking I'm building a legacy. I just feel like I'm, honestly, I'm leaning into where God has come on, girl told me to, go. I love that.

And to where to use my gifts and talents. Yes. And I feel like he has used the experiences that I had, like in medical affairs and then the experiences that I had at aate and said, you know, medical affairs and pharma right. At different companies. and then the experience I had doing like the health equity, community engagement work very fully at ACC equate and said, you know, go back, take all that experience and like go help pharma go back and like, you know, the right company and the right opportunity, I will help you use all those different pieces of knowledge to like drive this same mission forward.

so that's how I ended up at Biogen. And so I'm the lead for health equity and clinical innovation there. We have a, a head for health equity. Mm-hmm. she's dope. Her name is Lauren Powell. Mm-hmm. and we have a therapeutic area lead. My counterpart he works a bit more upstream on the clinical trial, and clinical operations part of like.

Trying to ingrain some of these health equity principles into that aspect of the drug development process. And then I work a bit more downstream where it's like, okay, you know, once you've met your clinical trial diversity goals, what do you do with that? Like, how do we as a health equity team, you know, partner with the marketing team or the patient advocacy team or the medical affairs team to take that pull through of the success we had with the clinical trial diversity and make sure that when the drug actually is gonna be out there in the real world that, you know, physicians know about it.

in the different communities that are probably gonna be using the drugs that patients know about it, we're getting insights from them. So it's kind of this new thing. I love it. You 

Dr. Ren: have to hit 

Dr. Camille Campbell: every area. Like health equity has 

Dr. Ren: to be ingrained, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: it's gotta be ingrained throughout the process. 

Dr. Ren: Yes. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: And so that's really like the nexus of our work, that our.

Small but Mighty team is doing at Biogen. but I said about putting like a pin in something that you said previously about like the community, like people needing to see, folks like them who look like them or maybe have the same cultural background or the same experiences, like doing this work.

I think that there are companies like Aate or like your organization that definitely serve as a bridge. but it's also important for people to see that like, you know, again, I'm gonna speak for black women, for other black women to see that there are black women who work in pharma at these pharmaceutical companies.

Like, yes. Trying to, trying to make sure things are equitable, right? Yes. Like to know that there are, you know, Hispanics, Hispanic and Latino scientists who are, very aware of some of the cultural things that might need to be taken into consideration when it comes to, exposing their communities to clinical trials.

And they're working inside the pharmaceutical company that there are women that, right. Like, that's important too. So one of the cool things, that I like about the work that we do at Biogen is mm-hmm. You know, we in the streets too, like come in internally. Yes. We're trying to ingrain ourselves into all of these different functional areas across the drug development continuum.

But then externally, we're in the community now. Not as much as I was in like my previous role, Uhhuh, but like, we're going to where the people are 

Dr. Ren: as much as you can be because Yeah, you're kind of, you, you have to do the work. on the inside. Yes. But then you also need to do the work on the outside.

And that is, oh my God, that's one of the things that I make sure of in the mm-hmm. Diverse research now with our events and Yeah. Clinical child health form, we bring people like you, pharmaceutical, the pharma world researchers, the people that's in the leadership roles there to the community. You have to be there.

Yes. Because we can't do it alone. Like there, again, my organization is the bridge, so we wanna bring you in the community together. Exactly. I mean, physically 

Dr. Camille Campbell: yes. Like, yes. Like literally you show up the event. I want you to show up or show up. want to be there and have the conversations with people.

And I think, it's super helpful not just for the community members, right. Because, and they're like, oh, okay. know, you hear, oh, you, you remind me of my granddaughter. whatcha talking about? Talking about, you know, prostate, you know, and then now they'll listen to you because you remind, I remind them of somebody that they know and love.

But then also it's great for the insights that, the pharmaceutical company can receive, like, directly from community members. Oh. So it kind of takes away this, you know, it demystifies things for everybody, right? Yes. To just to just be there. It's, I 

Dr. Ren: they identify with you. it's required, you know, I mean, and that's with anyone.

It's, again, it's not just in the black community. You identify with people that look like you and. I always get like the question of when they see me out there, they're like, how did you get into this? Like they're always like so surprised at like what I'm talking about and what my mission is and the topic that I'm talking about, because it's not being like.

Talked about a lot in our community. Mm-hmm. But it's so important. And so, hey. Yeah. No, there's someone like you out here trying to tell you like, Hey, this is important. Mm-hmm. Let's listen up, let's take heed to what's going on in this, clinical research world. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. So they always are like, very surprised. They're like, huh? Like, you know. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, no, it's not. us, but we out there too, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Uhhuh. Yeah. and we have a responsibility. I do feel like for those of us, and I guess this is in any profession, right?

Like once you're an expert in a profession, you know, it's your job to help bring people along who might benefit from your expertise, right? So like, I love that. That's in that environment, right? cause again, I'm maybe, you know, Dr. Camille health equity lead, Biogen, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, at work.

But like at home, I'm talking to my parents about, that's right. You know, healthcare and clinical trials, and as you get older, what do you need to, right. And I'm just, I'm their daughter, right. Or I'm, cousin Camille. I'm who you can call who, you know, you can get the real from. But you know, I know what I'm talking about.

And if I don't know what I'm talking about, I help out, well, I will help us find information exactly that is accurate and meaningful. Right. But I feel like that is a responsibility that Yes, we now have, is to bring these discussions to our family members, to our friends to make it less scary. and not in a forceful way.

You can't force people to do anything. and we shouldn't, but we should want, our families, our friends, our communities that have been historically marginalized, to be as educated as possible and in a position to make an informed decision when the time comes. 

Dr. Ren: I love it. Completely get it. Don't make no sense to me to keep all this knowledge from myself.

Right? This is you. I, I, I wanna share with my community with, I wanna make us better, like mm-hmm. You know what I mean? It makes no sense for me to keep, what I'm learning to myself. so tell me in one word, what you think, defines the future of inclusive research. Like what word comes to mind when you think of inclusive research?

Like making sure that everyone is involved in this process? 

Dr. Camille Campbell: I don't know 

Dr. Ren: if I have one 

Dr. Camille Campbell: word. You, you see I talk a lot. what a phrase. A phrase. I would say, well, in this environment, keep going. That's the phrase. Keep, keep going. 

Dr. Ren: Keep going 

Dr. Camille Campbell: for those of us who do this work. 

Dr. Ren: Yeah, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: because it has been Some stuff, right? Yeah. These last, you know, there's an attack. We all, and we all know that there's been a, an attack on, DEI, diversity, equity, we, that phases 

Dr. Ren: us. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: We keep going. I keep going. Right? And the thing is, is that honestly, There have been people look whose shoulders like we stand on, who've always done this work, have al in their own way, whether it be in pharma, whether it be in community, like this is not new for generations.

There have been folks who it might not have been maybe directly related to clinical child diversity, right. But it's been related to making sure that, marginalized communities have the access that they deserve, when it comes to healthcare, that have, equitable treatment and things like that.

Or it could have been clinical child diversity outta the way. It's not new. Right. And so this isn't the first time that attacks have happened. and the work has continued. Yep. Maybe under a different name. Yeah. Maybe it looks a little bit different. Yeah. But like, we have to keep going. The problems, the inequities do not go away just because, 

The quote unquote powers that be. And I say that loosely 

Dr. Ren: Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Tell you that DEI is bad. Yeah. 

Dr. Ren: Right. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. inequities don't go away. Not for various races, not for various ethnicities, not for rural communities, regardless of your race and ethnicity. Like the inequities still, still exists. If anything, they may get worse.

And so with certain policies and stuff that are gonna be coming into play, so we just, so we 

Dr. Ren: have to get creative, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: be resilient, and keep going and 

Dr. Ren: keep going. And I love that. I love that because, this work, I always remind myself, this work is not something that will happen overnight.

Like, change won't happen overnight. This is going to be a long haul. You know, like, I, I always say this is a long haul. you're changing like. Years and years and years of what's been happening. Mm-hmm. The same, you know what I mean? Like, you know, change takes time. Yeah. So, yes, yes. We have to keep going.

We might not see it, but hey, may you know what I mean? Like, I think about that. I'm like, I know I might not see the change, but I'm going to keep doing the work. So like my kids see the change. You know what I mean? Like, you have to think of it like that, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: And also, but look for change though.

'cause I mean. There has been It might be a We're moving in the right direct direction. 

Dr. Ren: Yeah. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: We're going in the right direction. Right. And, you know, you look at steady people, or e even if, the enforcement of submitting diversity action plans is not necessarily happening right now.

You know, the fact that many companies are still putting together diversity action plans because they're like, this is the right, the right thing to do for patients. It's the right thing to do for our business. and so we're gonna do it and, still have these strategies and still go into communities because it's what makes sense, right?

And so you see that people are still doing the work. start to look at, you know, now every clinical data set that I look at, I look at it with like this lens of what is the breakdown of demographics? And I wonder if they talk about the comorbidities and I wonder if they talk about rural versus whatever.

And I start to do, dig, dig a little deeper. And you see that like. Change. Change changes have been made in some instances. And so, celebrate the wins. 

Dr. Ren: That's right. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: But know that there's still more to lot more to be done. There's 

Dr. Ren: more to do. And yeah, just, and keep going. So going. I I love that. And I wanna ask you like to give a message to like former leaders, you are a former leader yourself.

So I feel like before you even tell me what your message is like, 'cause the message that I've gotten from just talking to you and the word that I keep hearing you use is assumptions. Like mm-hmm. Stop making assumptions. I might title this episode like, because I love that because you mentioned assumptions so much.

'cause I do think a lot of times. The leaders are assuming certain things about different groups and stop making assumptions. That makes sense to me. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. Stop making assumptions. There's probably two things. So I love the assumptions ' cause you make assumptions based off of your bias. Ah, that you probably already have.

That we all have, we all have bias. Uhhuh, Uhhuh, but then something we actually talk about, my team at Biogen. Mm-hmm. and my Lauren, our head of health equity kind of pin, this was like, Invisible. What did she say? Invisible in the data means invisible in the dev. Invisible in the, the point is, you think you have these as you're mitigating the assumptions that you have personally by saying, well, let's go to the data, let's go to the claims data, or let's go to this, that, and the other and see if we can figure out where the gaps are based on that.

But you also are assuming that the people you're trying to reach are showing up in the claims data. They might not be, they might not have a primary care physician, they might not be going to the doctor regularly. you also can't assume that the sources that you're currently using to like fill the gaps that you know exist aren't totally accurate as well.

Mm-hmm. Now you might not be able to like fix that right away, but it's just being knowledgeable of saying like, okay. Even if I go to the claims data, even if I go to this or I look up the prevalence, incidents, whatever on this website, like, just know that the people you're trying to reach might not be showing up in that data set either.

Dr. Ren: That's right. So 

Dr. Camille Campbell: again, and so you're assuming Yeah. you're making assumptions. So just be aware of like the assumptions that you may be making and think about how do I mitigate for that. Mm-hmm. So, so you're, you're right. That's one thing I would say. And then the other thing I would say is, pharmaceutical companies have to realize that doing this is not just right for patients.

It's right for business. when physicians or whoever are making decisions about, the prescriptions that are gonna be written or what goes on formulary, right? Mm-hmm. What's gonna be in the clinical guidelines. the more. Inclusive representative and diverse data you have, the better because they can feel confident.

They can feel confident that like, this drug is gonna work in the patient population that I treat. that the broad whatever population that I'm representing from a formulary and insurance perspective. And so that has a financial benefit to your company when there can be confidence from those decision makers in your data.

So even for the people who don't wanna do this for altruistic reasons, 'cause you know, whatever, like I don't care about the people, maybe you care about the money. there is a very real business reason Yeah. for doing this and doing this. Right. Yeah. That goes along with, doing it for the benefit of patients.

So you said doing it right? That's what I would tell pharma leaders. Like, don't forget that there's Yeah. You know, yeah. 

Dr. Ren: Doing it right. Mm-hmm. Because doing it right doesn't always mean doing it for the right reason, but doing it right. Let's just stop right there. Let's get it done. Let's do it the right way.

Do it. Do it and do it well. Yeah. And do it well do it Well if you gonna do it, let's do it. Well, and let's come on. Okay. So the last thing that we're gonna get outta here. Okay. But the last question is for our community, because, you know, that's who I'm passionate about. I'm passionate about community.

Mm-hmm. how can we make us better? and I think research is, so important to mm-hmm. Making us better because again, that's how we are, we come up with medications, right. That are gonna work for us. what's the message? What's your message for the community after all your community work?

 what do you say to your community?

Dr. Camille Campbell: Be empowered. 

Dr. Ren: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Right? Know that you, you are the patient, so Yes. you know what you're going through. Yes. And you have a right to ask your healthcare provider all the questions. Right. And if they're not giving you the time or you don't feel like you're getting, you have a right to try to switch healthcare providers too, right.

You could fire your doctor. I used to, we used to talk about that, in some of our community work, and people would ask, well, my doctor's like, let's help you find a new one. Right? Like, you can, so there's that, but also like for things that you might be apprehensive about when it comes to the healthcare system, when it comes to clinical trials, because it's not always just clinical trials.

 I could tell you stories about people who like won't go get surgeries and won't take certain medications and I'm just like, so you just going, these things are designed to help you. Right? Like, Find someone that you know has two, two qualities that you can trust and who is an expert in what they're talking about.

Mm-hmm. And again, please just be empowered to ask them as many questions as you feel like you need to ask to ask as many questions as you feel like need to ask. in order to feel comfortable with every decision you have to make. And that doesn't mean you have to like do it right. But at least you'll be informed and educated, but make sure that the people have those qualities, right?

 you can trust what they're saying and they're an expert in what they're talking about. so yes. And don't 

Dr. Ren: give up. Don't give up on that because Keep going. Yeah, keep going. The message is keep going because I think, I feel like our community sometimes we give up on finding the right people.

Like no, they will come, you will find the right person. don't give up on that. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: Yeah. And, and while it may help for that person to, you know, be of the same hue background culture, right. Yeah, they might, sometimes they might not be. So also like, don't discount discredit. Yeah. what a physician or a pharmacist or nurse or whomever is saying, just because, again, I'm a black woman, I ain't a black woman, so I ain't gonna, don't do that.

Don't do that, don't do that. Don't do that. Right. You gonna block your blessing. Right. Use your discernment. Right? Yes. Fill them out. Yeah. Feel, fill them out. Fill them out. And because there are a lot of folks who, yeah, you don't wanna block your blessing again, it might be helpful to have that.

But you know, the way, oh, 

Dr. Ren: I have a, I have a doctor now that doesn't look like me and I love him. He is 

Dr. Camille Campbell: great. Right. 

Dr. Ren: And he's so personable. I can feel that he really cares. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: But that's trust. You have a trusted relationship. And so that is super. And so again, I didn't say they have to look like you would, did I say trust?

Yeah. Expert. Yeah. Your physician. You trust your physician, you have a great relationship with your physician. He is an expert. those are like the two of the key components. Okay. yeah. Okay. 

Dr. Ren: I think that's it. Well, well I love what you said. Look, I have a little, look, I be trying to put words together.

So you said for the community you have a right. But then you also said for the pharma leaders to do it right. And everybody needs to keep going, keep going, keep going. You have a right, you do it right. Okay. Like, we gonna put that together in some way. And that's gonna be our, that I love taglines.

Okay. Okay. People remember those things, you know, when you have those, taglines to just, you know. But yes, keep going. Thank you so much, Camille. I really appreciate your voice. I appreciate your experience in this work and the legacy that you're leaving, and I can't wait to see what more that you do and the impact you have.

 yeah. I'm just grateful to know you. Well, 

Dr. Camille Campbell: thank you. And I appreciate you and the work that you're doing as well with diverse research now. So 

Dr. Ren: thank you. Keep going. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: All 

Dr. Ren: right. All right. Talk you later. 

Dr. Camille Campbell: All right. 

Dr. Ren: Bye.